DUNE! No longer December 18, 2020, now October 22, 2021!

[Draco1962]

A remake long in the making! DUNE in theaters December 18, 2020!

Now to reread (again)!

[tthurman]

The big question is will this be anything aside from another poor adaption?

Trailer looks promising and the names are certainly here, let's hope this is THE ONE!

 

[Draco1962]

From what I have read/heard, this will not be one movie for the first book, but part one of a two part adaptation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(2020_film)

So long as that is to give the story the proper depth from immense amount of detail in the book, then it bodes well. If it is to treat it as Peter Jackson did "The Hobbit" and add a bunch of non-Hobbit details to squeeze the last penny from the franchise, then all bets are off.

[RIP-Felix]

DUNE 1984 is one of my all time favorites. It's one I keep to watch on VHS. The score is where it's at for me (Toto made that movie), and they actually did a pretty good job of sticking to the dialog, when they didn't jump around. The extended version on DVD takes something like 4 hours to watch (with conceptual drawings, voice acting and scenes that weren't used in the theatrical release). It's much more faithful to the book. So it takes about 4 hours (2 movies) to faithfully tell the story. My complaints in that movie is how disgusting they made the Barron of house Harkonnan, the heat plug scene, and that creepy blood lust scene with Alia Atredes holding the Crysknife after feeding the "flying fat man" to a worm. She's definitely a psychopath, keep an eye on that one! That's what happens when your mother drinks the water of life while pregnant, I guess. They should put a surgeon general's warning on that stuff!

I'm hyped! I actually think that DUNE should be a two parter. No need for a trilogy, A duet is perfect.

[hansolo77]

I hope they flesh out and develop more of the meanings and nuances in the reboot.  The first movie did a pretty poor job of doing that.  The Syfy Channel's mini-series was a LOT better, although it had some pretty piss poor campy acting.  I actually enjoy it better.  I also hope they don't use the "wierding modules".  That was just some stupid crap David Lynch came up with for the movie to circumvent having the Fremen use the "wierding way" technique.  There's a lot in the book that was never brought to screen.  The whole bit with the Bene Geserit purposely coordinating the births so Paul would never be born (thus creating the messiah and the jihad), and then with Alia being born with the full knowledge of an adult and the past because of the water of life.  All the stuff about Jessica's purpose, Chani being Kyne's daughter, Stilgar's role as 2nd in command until Paul is supposed to kill him.  Then there's all that prelude, about how Shaddam IV is eliminating his imperial competition by purposely giving Arakkis to Atradies knowing that Harkonnan will come back in force and do his "dirty work" by killing him.  So much in context is lost when you're forced to combine a huge book into 2 hours.  I'm glad they're doing a split series, it will definitely help the story.  I agree with Draco too.. they better not add a bunch of non-canonical BS just to make it more interesting.  It worked with the Hobbit because a lot of the stuff that was added was actually included in the appendices except for the whole bit about Legolas's girlfriend, and her loving a dwarf nonsense. 

If it goes well, maybe they'll make the series?  I'd like to see a proper Children of Dune made instead of the crap Syfy came up with.  I don't think it followed the book very well at all.

[Draco1962]

In one of the articles I read, the same director was working on a series Dune: Sisterhood about the Bene Gesserit order.

I don't believe it is based upon the Sisterhood of Dune book by Brian Herbert from the Great Schools of Dune prequel trilogy.

[RIP-Felix]

I saw the movie as a kid and grew up watching it many times with my dad, so I'm definitely biased. I read it, well listened to the audiobook, for the first time a number of years ago. I only listened twice, and it's been awhile now, so the details are fuzzy. Time for another listen I guess. Anyhow, I felt like the book was a nice complement to the movie, tying in all the stuff the movie didn't cover. I mean, they completely ignored the Crysknife, but nod to it in that psycho scene with Alia holding it in a blood lust. They didn't include any of its significance. In my minds eye while listening, I saw all the same characters having the same conversations. I guess that's the benefit of seeing the movie first and liking it. From that perspective, it was pretty faithful. I felt more forgiving of what they didn't include and less annoyed but the stuff that was added...

I was like, "What? No weirding modules!" I liked the weirding modules, thank you very much! But it's not like you can be mad at the author for not creating what the movie changed after the fact...lol.

It's a completely different experiance reading the book after seeing the movie, I always seem to end up liking both. Almost never seems to work out in the opposite direction however.

 

[hansolo77]

Yeah I agree.  I only just read the book a couple of years ago.  I'm such a slow reader it's disgusting.  I mean, Frank Herbert wrote that book with so many made up words, I found myself constantly flipping to the dictionary at the back of the book just so I could remember what the heck he was talking about.  I never heard the audio book, and it's probably a little easier to grasp.  But yea, I got the book at the library, had it for 30 days then had to take it back, renewed it, read for another 30 days, and was then only about 1/4 of the way through.  I asked the librarian if I could renew it again, and they said I could renew it as many times as it takes BUT it was reserved for somebody else so I had to wait for them to finish (I reserved it myself) before I could finish it.  The movie was cool for me as a kid growing up, although I didn't really follow much of the story.  I just remember there were desert fight scenes with huge worms, and it had Captain Picard in it.  Then later I remember playing Dune: Battle for Arrakis on the PC and felt like I should watch it again.  I enjoyed it more as a teenager and was able to grasp the story better.  Then Syfy came out with their campy acting yet much better story telling mini-series.  Then I read the book over the course of like 6 months.  I still have plans to read all the rest of the Frank Herbert books, though I'm not sure if I want to bother with his son's stuff or not.

[RIP-Felix]

I enjoyed the middle eastern influences. They make it feel more atmospheric/foreign - a good combination for an underdog story. I always appreciated Herbert representing the middle eastern inspired characters as heroes in this story. They're all too often vilified in western literature. The jihad or "holy war" is liberation from oppression. The Kwisatz Haderach brings water to a desert planet, the only planet with the spice melange which enables space folding, and reclaims equal footing in the universe after being exploited for so long. I found DUNE a refreshing parable - a sci-fy retelling of western civilizations clashing with the middle east. A story that's yet resolved. You could say it's a cautionary tale.

It's also a textbook example of cultural appropriation. A western white white boy drinks some desert water and becomes the messiah for all the people of DUNE? Give me a break. Whatever makes it palatable for western audience, I guess. It's still another white washing of Jesus.

[Draco1962]

Cultural appropriation? The following is not directed at you or about you, BTW. I have mainy seen/heard that word when someone of color is going after someone melanistically challenged for listening to the music, talking the talk, and wearing the garb. Typically it is a form of racist expression and isolationism in and of itself. I think that the term "cultural assimilation" is more apropos, even within Herbert's books. "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

There are many Middle Eastern religious references as well as Western intermingled (or assimilated) with the practices, orders, etc. They melded and became a "world religion" but as with many religions, you always have some snot-nosed upstart that comes in, runs the money changers out of the temple, only to end up on the run from authorities, assaulted, and transformed into something new upon which a new religion is based.

I think that the "new" Paul Atreides has some Middle-Eastern features - much more so than the two that preceded him, so a thinner whitewashed veneer than the previous onscreen incarnations. Even the cast seems more diverse from the list and trailer so far 

Herbert's books can be seen as a cautionary tale of religion becoming government and how corruption becomes absolute as it seeks ultimate control in the name of peace and order. Add a dash of extreme capitalism and monopoly...

"So this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause."

 

[hansolo77]

I love what George Lucas did with Star Wars (purposeful derailment of of the OP since it's gone from movie to politics to racism and religion).  I never even thought about all that when I grew up watching Star Wars.  It was way over my head at the time.  Then, when I was older, I picked up so much more about the religious aspects and what things like the Force and the Jedi represent.  Then I saw a documentary where George confirmed it was all deliberate, and that the subtle nuances were meant to be picked up and made relevant to all cultures in their own way.  Dune is very much the same.  As is Star Trek (at least it started out that way).  Every episode had something to do with current events and science fiction provided the platform to present new and alternative points of view.  This is what makes great sci-fi..  Hiding the true purpose of a story behind universal characters dealing with lasers and aliens.  At the end of the day (maybe this thread) I'm just glad to see another re-working of Dune, and can't wait to see it.

[Draco1962]

Fortunately or unfortunately, sci-fi and fantasy writers and filmographers will be influenced by the sociopolitical happenings of the day or from their life experiences. It is how they address them that makes for good story telling or not.

I don't see the discussion as veering far off topic. If anything it is very applicable in how the newest iteration will address current concerns in the diversity of casting and emphasis of the story and direction relative to the core of the story.

[RIP-Felix]

This may piss off trekies, but who really cares what they think anyway. Star trek was an atheist eco chamber, more than it was a sociopolitically fair. I always felt belittled by their self-righteous perspective. They always place religion in opposition to truth and knowledge. This reveals the writers prejudices more than it makes for good science fiction. It sours my opinion of the show and has aged poorly. There's no need to crap on 95% worlds most cherished core values! It doesn't do anything but divide people.

 

I think the way Dune and star wars embraced religion as a way to enrich the diversity and intrigue of their characters and plots was both more engaging and relatable. Religion isn't the problem, its the mixing with politics and forcing everyone to comply that is. It's devisive, not inclusive. That's  the opposite of unity. Unity is tolerance. We haven't gotten this formula right yet, and it underpins all sociopolitical struggles. All good science fiction reflects these struggles, without taking sides or condemning anyone who identifies with a side (besides the classic good vs evil plotlines). The Jedi aren't comdemed for believing in the force, even they have to endure a few disbelieving Han Solo's. They eventually become the heros against the evil dark side, who also have disbelievers. Both sides put up with each other even thought they clash. And the whole balance of light vs dark is an attempt to reconcile the equal but opposite viewpoints. I think it's a bit optimistic and naive to believe that permitting a little evil is necessary to prevent a lot of evil. But it's more believable than star treks "everything would be fine if we were all athiest" message.

 

DUNE is more engaging because of its religious overtones as well. There's just more mystery and destiny involved. Nothing demystifies like science. I think that perhaps its more fantasy than it is science fiction. Space fantasy.

[Draco1962]

I do not disagree entirely. I think that Star Trek has began to show a bit more edge and regain a soul in the more recent iterations and became more accepting of religion and that its utopian leanings were a glass house and cracks were showing.

Even Sheldon Cooper eventually conceded to the fact that he was "half-human" and must accept his human frailties, such emotion.

[RIP-Felix]

On 9/13/2020 at 4:53 AM, Draco1962 said:

...I have mainy seen/heard that word when someone of color is going after someone melanistically challenged for listening to the music, talking the talk, and wearing the garb. Typically it is a form of racist expression and isolationism in and of itself. I think that the term "cultural assimilation" is more apropos, even within Herbert's books. "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

I'm melanistically adapted to my latitude, and if I weren't I'd supplement Vit-D. There's really nothing more to it than that!

Assimilation has its own backstory (lookup 1950's native American sterilization program. That's a doozy!). No I mean cultural appropriation. When a key person or character is "appropriated" and made to look like another group, it's offensive. I don't need to be a minority to see that. What if history books depicted MLK as white? Why would you do it in the first place? Does skin tone distract from the message? Why is there a need for a white hero in the first place? So a majority group can better identify with him? If that's the case, then there exists an implicit bias that needs correcting. Or perhaps it's cathartic to see a white man be accepted by a group of people often seen as not being accepting. In that case, the perception that another group not accepting is the bias. Usually these biases emerge from a lack of personal association with a diverse demographic. It can result from cultural stratification from a multitude of causes, such as socioeconomics, policy, systemic racism, and probably the most pertinent to our time - propaganda.

Try to remember that propaganda is primarily how governments try to influence elections. Usually through social media. Not just each others elections, but their own. In democracies, the goal is to create two political factions then incite them to civil war. During the chaos is a good time for a new political faction to emerge and pick up the pieces. It doesn't just apply to race, but to wealth gaps, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation, even dialect or accent. This crap's been going on forever. Unity means putting up with each other AND not letting normal domestic disputes be manipulated against us by foreign or domestic threats who want to incite further division. They want the system to burn, so they can create a new one in it's place. Exploiting existing divisions is the easiest way to accomplish it.

 

When it comes to good science fiction, I want good science and good fiction. Politics is not good fiction! Part of the reason I like Sci-Fi is as an escape from reality. The prequel star wars trilogy, for example, hit too close to home. The politics encroached on my escape from reality. It broke the fiction! Episodes 4-6 was more focused on action and mystery, friendships and danger, good vs. evil, escape and liberation. The politics was only enough (inspired by real political events) to establish a credible fictitious narrative. That is all you need, and it was a good balance. DUNE has more politics than I would like, but it makes sense in the narrative and isn't really the focus of the main character's struggle. I prefer the heroins being carried along by politics outside their control (it's more relatable for non-politicians), rather than being privy to every rationalization, backbiting feud, or political plot-twists. Give me the fiction, not the all too familiar politics I came here to escape.

As for good science, the narrative can be woven within a seemingly credible scientific framework (think Jurassic Park or Ready Player One). There is no need for the supernatural if your fiction takes place in a simulation or results from biotech with a seed of plausibility. If good science isn't possible, then good fantasy will work. That's where the "force" can be useful. I like how Lucas avoided familiar religious ties, even though it's obvious that's the inspiration. There's no explanation how "light speed" travel is possible, or how Light sabers work. Kyber crystals were invented for that later, but are unnecessary because it's fantasy. Fantasy adds a mysterious flair that makes the story more engaging, in a way that doesn't require plausibility like Science fiction usually does. My sister rather cogently explained this to me when she convinced me that Star wars was not a Science fiction genre, but was in fact fantasy. That's why she likes it.  Whereas ready player one and Jurassic Park had plausibility backing the fiction, Star Wars and DUNE had mystery and fantasy backing theirs. However in each case, good science,  good fiction, and good fantasy only establish the story. The story still has to be good. And reminding the audience of everything the came to escape is bad form! Just like the first half of this post :p

[Draco1962]

As always, thoughtful and good points made. Especially about the politics in entertainment. I have quit watching sports and awards shows (Grammy, Oscars, etc.) because I am tired of all of the causes and politics being forced into my face every time. "I don't care about your politics, movement, or cause, Jennifer Lawrence. Just look pretty and entertain me. Take my mind somewhere other than the mundain, drab, annoying droning of the politicos and talking heads."

[RIP-Felix]

4 hours ago, Draco1962 said:

 "I don't care about your politics, movement, or cause, Jennifer Lawrence. Just look pretty and entertain me..."

While I strongly disagree with statements like this, I don't have to agree with everything you believe to consider you a friend. You're free to believe what you want, so long as you don't try to stop me from doing the same. If we can agree on that, we can be friends.

This generation hasn't been taught that ethic. The best way for a couple to divorce is to stop talking. I didn't have to agree with the racist comments my grandparents made to still love them. I just ignored their prejudiced opinions and refused to engage. They were otherwise good people, they just sometimes said ignorant things. That shit dies with them, I'm not perpetuating it. It didn't stop me from enjoying fishing with grandpa. That's how I remember him now that he's gone. He had a hard life and provided for his family. I don't dishonor his memory by condemning the few times in old age when his filter came off. If I just shut out anyone who disagrees with me, then how can I grow? How can I get a feel for the world? What beliefs are still out there? And how big of a problem it is? Talking to real people challenges your paradigm, give you a sense of what's real or not. It teaches you about people and their place in historical context. It's a good thing - communication.

Social media makes it possible to see only what you "think" you want to. Truth becomes meaningless when your whole experience is custom tailored by the matrix. Or is it really what advertisers think you want to see, and over time believe (yes)? Or is it what republicans, democrats, Russia wants you to believe (maybe, maybe, maybe)? It's bad enough when algorithms try to pigeon hole us. There's no need for us to to do it to ourselves. Get off that propaganda train and talk to your neighbors. My generation used to say, "Get a clue!" That's good advice for this generation, but they're addicted to something incapable of giving them one. Lucky me, I guess. I saw social media for what it was before they did themselves. I never took part and never will.

Make no mistake sheeple, you are being manipulated online. Emotions are easily manipulated, your mind is harder! Wear some technological body armor and defend yourself. VPN, PiHole, DuckDuckGo, adblock, and most of all GET OFF SOCIAL MEDIA!

Speaking of trains:

[Draco1962]

To be honest, I don't particularly like statements like that either. It is an example of a pushback defensive response when you've been overwhelmed by yet another in thousands of #metoo expressions, BLM protests from taking of knees to walking out of anthems to burning down yet another business and livelihood, to COVID-19 and who responded better or would donit differently.

Social media and mainstream media play all sides against one another. Strife sells. It creates churn and people devour it and crap it with gusto. Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter have succeeded in creating "human centipedes" out of its membership.

So understand the context of that quote is to demonstrate an extreme response of someone that just simply wants to be entertained. As a consumer, I pay good money to try to escape the continuous onslaught. As a citizen, I share similar concerns to many of the entertainers. I'm simply tired of the politics outside of the ads, the protests outside of the news. Just help me escape and entertain me!

When I was a kid, I'd sometimes sit with my grandpa and we'd watch Victory at Sea, Twelve O'clock High, or some other WWII themed serial or movie. I loved the time spent with him and he loved spending time with me. My grandmother would often come in and get onto my grandpa and tell him to turn the channel to something else. I thought she was being mean. I didn't realize that she was actually trying to protect him from having bad nightmares due to his PTSD (something all too real back then before it wss officially recognized and assigned initials).

We are being traumatically stressed as a country. Will our nation snap if we are not allowed an escape? We haven't been taught how to turn it off, to find something else to do.

Yes, OG has gone off the rails of the crazy train.

 

[RIP-Felix]

10 hours ago, Draco1962 said:

To be honest, I don't particularly like statements like that either. It is an example of a pushback defensive response when you've been overwhelmed by yet another in thousands of #metoo expressions, BLM protests from taking of knees to walking out of anthems to burning down yet another business and livelihood, to COVID-19 and who responded better or would donit differently.

So understand the context of that quote is to demonstrate an extreme response of someone that just simply wants to be entertained. As a consumer, I pay good money to try to escape the continuous onslaught. As a citizen, I share similar concerns to many of the entertainers. I'm simply tired of the politics outside of the ads, the protests outside of the news. Just help me escape and entertain me!

Yeah, I get where you're coming from. That's exactly what I mean, when the fiction hit's too close to home and reminds me of what I'm trying to escape. And yeah, it's hard not to recoil from the constant entreaties from BLM movements, #Metoo movements, climate change scientists, and so on. But like a bowel movement, it's not something that can be ignored. It's not going to feel better until you sit down and pass that shit! Unfortunately, we've been eating a lot of junk food. I think we may be on the pot for while!

Politics is society's bathroom. No one likes having to go, but it serves a necessary purpose. I can think of no better metaphor. And like toilet paper, politicians are the tool societies use to get the job done. Let's hope only one flush is needed to get rid of this turd!

[Draco1962]

As we used to write on the bathroom wall in high-school, "Flush twice - it's a long way to the cafeteria!"

[Draco1962]

Exclusive: Denis Villeneuve’s ‘Dune’ Movie Is Moving to Late 2021

Dammit! 2020 suxorz!

[tthurman]

 

 

[hansolo77]

Sorry. but..

Hell Fuckin' Yeah.

[tthurman]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too!

[Draco1962]

As much as I miss going to the theater, I am glad that this will be released via HBOMAX. We are in a COVID-19 hot-spot with numbers climbing above the worst case last summer due to the Delta variants. 

2021 has exceeded my predictions and then some for a "2020? Hold my beer!" year. Not taking my chances amongst the masses if I can help it.