Scanlines vs. Pixels - emulation accuracy

[tthurman]

Wow, on the same page.....I had this monitor for years at work until it finally got blindingly bright and unusable.

 

[Draco1962]

In that side-by-side demo, the text on the LCD had the jagged edges while the CRT appeared smooth. I WANT SMOOTH... DOLPHIN SMOOTH!

[RIP-Felix]

How a CRT works:

Spoiler

 

How a Color TV works:

Spoiler

 

How a Sony Trinitron Works:

Spoiler

 

So, these are the most common types of phosphor arrangements on a color CRT. These are what you need to try and simulate with an overlay or shader to emulate a CRT:

I've been working on some designs that are starting to look pretty good, but I'm not happy with them yet. Still, working on it...

[B2K24]

4 hours ago, tthurman said:

CRT, it's in the game! 

Pretty cool side by side, albeit a bit dated.

Turn  your volume DOWN

Although I'm someone that tries to mess around with shaders and different effects and such. The key here is that there's no substitute for GLASS

Look at the beginning of the video when the TV and LCD is basically shutoff. Even without anything on the screen you can already see a distinct visual difference.

 

I'm someone that's tried probably every shader on the planet. I even spent a ton of money on an Acer Predator XB271HU due to it supporting G-Sync which means I can run any game at it's native refresh rate.

While I love it especially for newer gen games, I stumbled upon a reddit post one day and decided I had to try it out.

 

Eventually, I found myself carrying out a Sony Trinitron KV-27FS100 out of a Goodwill store. When I got GroovyMAME and everything else hooked up and working perfectly, my jaw hit the floor. It literally is the best way to play these games as there's no substitute for glass and the way the colors pop especially when things are in motion. It's like looking at a photo and your LCD resembles the photo on dull matte paper while your CRT resembles shiny glossy paper that truly shines when you look at it.

 

Another good resource ---> http://scarthunter.b...om/p/links.html

 

https://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/87668-A-guide-to-connecting-your-Windows-PC-to-an-SD-CRT-TV-PVM-or-Arcade-Monitor

 

[B2K24]

3 hours ago, tthurman said:

Pretty cool stuff, from what I'm reading the desire to return to crt for retro gaming is becoming contagious.

 

https://imgur.com/r/crtgaming/qR6QH

 

Yes, yes it is

 

Pretty active sub here --> https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/

[RIP-Felix]

I just stumbled across this. It requires more beefy system requirements to run, so Raspberry pi or my NES classic may not handle it well, but a PC should handle it fine. http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/CRT-Royale

It's the settings that matter here. You can set the mask type, Gamma, Contrast, Halation, Diffusion, bloom, beam, convergence and more, to get the CRT look right.

On a real CRT, if the signal contained no red in that spot, the phosphor would remain black (with perhaps a bit of bloom and halation from excitation of adjacent phosphors). Overlays and shaders just place a grid over the LCD, but don't actively change the color/brightness of the LCD to match this function.

I wonder if someone has made a CRT emulator that averages the RGB color value of all the pixels that fall within the shadow mask overlay (you would just have to define the area based on the display's current resolution), then display the RGB equivalent for each phosphor. If the red for that area averaged 123, it would display the red LED's within the red phosphor of the mask's overlay at a brightness of 123. The same respectively for the Green and Blue phosphor. Combined, they would equal the total RGB color combination the screen is outputting in that small area. Multiply this effect according to the mask type and scale it to fit the screen such that it would equal 480p.

Man I wish I could code. I could sell that shit!

[tthurman]

3 hours ago, B2K24 said:

iI'm someone that's tried probably every shader on the planet. I even spent a ton of money on an Acer Predator XB271HU due to it supporting G-Sync which means I can run any game at it's native refresh rate.

1

Somehow I don't doubt this a bit.

I guess I'm going to have to finally try groovyMAME!

 

[B2K24]

2 hours ago, RIP-Felix said:

I just stumbled across this. It requires more beefy system requirements to run, so Raspberry pi or my NES classic may not handle it well, but a PC should handle it fine. http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/CRT-Royale

 

If you're running RA you may want to check out Analog Shader Pack version 3

 

It's got tons of shaders you can choose from including Arcade monitors, Professional monitors, Televisions and more.

[laggerific]

20 hours ago, Draco1962 said:

Admittedly I had resigned myself to the fact that 100% display emulation was not possible, and, for some games, it may not be for a while. I am beginning to see the merit in fixing the video as much as I can where I can.

I came across a solution for playing the various Arcade Ambiance files for example, that takes advantage (on my system anyways) of playing the sounds over the PC speakers via the onboard Realtek audio while the game and system sounds play via the HDMI to TV speaker (actually my Sammy sound bar and wireless sub).

This gives me control over the volume for the ambiance sounds. I have collected several of the various arcade ambiance files and spliced them into one giant file.  I may eventually go back and add a music track with a random mix of late 70s-late 80s rock and pop hits to make that arcade audio feel as complete as possible.

That's really cool...I bet it sounds great.  But, I totally get it regarding keeping old tech alive while you can.  I'm fairly new to this, so not sure of the caveats, but, from your perspective, what aspects are most difficult to recreate?

[laggerific]

3 hours ago, B2K24 said:

 

If you're running RA you may want to check out Analog Shader Pack version 3

 

It's got tons of shaders you can choose from including Arcade monitors, Professional monitors, Televisions and more.

I've been meaning to get into Retroarch, due to those great creations, by John Merrit, I believe.  But, I was fairly intimidated.  This gives me more reason to get motivated.  Thanks.

[laggerific]

8 hours ago, B2K24 said:

Eventually, I found myself carrying out a Sony Trinitron KV-27FS100 out of a Goodwill store. When I got GroovyMAME and everything else hooked up and working perfectly, my jaw hit the floor. It literally is the best way to play these games as there's no substitute for glass and the way the colors pop especially when things are in motion. It's like looking at a photo and your LCD resembles the photo on dull matte paper while your CRT resembles shiny glossy paper that truly shines when you look at it.

 

Ooo...I wish I could find an uber scart switch, that could handle 8 inputs.  Glad I could find what I did. 

 

That said, the Q9FN is one of the brightest LCD displays I've ever seen. 

I did go for the curved display on my MAME/STEAM cabinet for 2 reasons...one, it's a 49" display at about 2'-3' from your face, and I wanted the outer players get a little more view of the further side of the display, and two, it was an homage to classic CRT displays, albeit, concave. 

I can't complain, though, and Street Fighter V and DBFZ looook amazing...especially with Black Frame Insertion enabled.  I'm senstive to flicker, but some things just look so good with it on.  Donkey Kong Country Returns on Dolphin comes alive with BFI. 

So, that's another reason for the interest in emulation.  I love the flexibiity it affords between my classic and modern game.  I'm hoping someone will come out with a lightweight, highly accurate LCD display that is a turnkey retro recreation.

[RIP-Felix]

On 8/4/2018 at 1:30 AM, laggerific said:

...I'm hoping someone will come out with a lightweight, highly accurate LCD display that is a turnkey retro recreation.

I bet a 'CRT emulator' is plausible. Shaders and scanline overlays kinda do that anyway, and most people are satisfied with the result, but they don't really use the LCD pixels to actually emulate the way a CRT worked, they just apply overlays, blur, and etc on top of the LCD image. I wonder why this hasn't been done? Seems like it could be a 'run it before' program that converts everything onscreen to a CRT look of your choosing, using commands like -PVM_BVM, -Slot_mask, -DOT_mask, -Aperature_grille, -B_W, and etc).

[RIP-Felix]

On 8/2/2018 at 5:30 PM, B2K24 said:

I've been keeping my eyes out for CRT's around 20" - 25" (especially Sony Trinitron's) that have component inputs because you can then use an old ATI Radeon card + component transcoder and connect your PC to it using CRT_Emudriver

 

I just replaced my Busted CRT with a Sony Trintron KV-24FS120. My dad had one sitting around with very little use. So it's pretty much new. I fits perfectly in my entertainment center. To celebrate, I put in a copy of the original star wars trilogy on VHS, unadulterated by CGI or inserted blaster fire to make it look like Han fired second. It was cathartic. Is it just me or did speakers on CRTs sound better? It has more bass than my flat screen does. I guess there's more room to hide a sub in there.

It has component input as well as the requisite composite and RF. Has anyone tried a HDMI to YPbPr/component converter like this? I'm thinking It would come in handy for any HDMI device, like my HTPC, X-box (original with the pound HDMI cable), Dreamcast (also with the pound cable), and etc. Especially the X-Box needs this, as the official component cables are expensive and the knockoff ones don't work (I tried them and they flicker/have artifacts). The pound cables work great on my HDTV, but I wonder if the adapter could convert that back to component to get around the issue. This would be a nice way to connect multiple HD sources to the single YPbPr input on the CRT, since I could use an IR HDMI switcher I could control with my remote. It's only $18, so It might be worth it. I hope to soon ultraHDMI mod my N64 too. Pluging it into the YPbPr input would be a great way to soften the pixelated look after deblur removes the antialising. No scanline effect needed!

Anyway, you can see where I'm going with this. Just feed the TV the highest quality signal possible to begin with and let the CRT do it's magic.

EDIT:

I just bought the adapter. So I'll test it out and see. If it doesn't work then I can always return it. Amazon is cool like that.