Upgrading for Occulus Rift, Intel or AMD?

[RIP-Felix]

Ok, so the infernal question faces me again! Do I build an Intel or AMD?

Why I'm upgrading:

1. Work picked up and I have saved a little money. I'm budgeting $750 for computer upgrade.
2. I'm preparing for the consumer release of the Occulus Rift, which I'm excited about. They recommend at least "a NVIDIA GTX 970 / AMD 290 equivalent or greater, Intel i5-4590 equivalent or greater, 8GB+ RAM, HDMI 1.3 video output,2x USB 3.0 ports, Windows 7 SP1 or newer."
3. My rig has only just been able to handle everything Dolphin can throw at it, with occasional slowdowns (usually cut scenes or transitions through doors). I want to eliminate my computer from bottlenecking any current Emulators. Also, I'd like to be able to run any current games on max settings that support Occulus Rift when it is released (Elite Dangerous, Fallout 4, Skyrim, Dolphin VR, and you name it).

The Infernal Decision:

• ASRock Z97 Extreme3, LGA 1150, Intel Z97, HDMI, SATA 6Gb/s, USB 3.0, ATX Intel
• Intel Core i7-4790K, Devil's Canyon Quad-Core 4.0 GHz LGA 1150, BX80646I74790K, with Intel HD Graphics 4600

• 1x PowerColor PCS+ Radeon R9 380, DirectX 12 AXR9 380 4GBD5-PPDHE 4GB 256-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 CrossFireX Support ATX Video Card

• $612.89 Shipped

OR

• ASUS M5A99FX PRO R2.0 AM3+ AMD 990FX + SB950 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard with UEFI BIOS

• AMD FX-9590 Vishera 8-Core 4.7 GHz Socket AM3+ 220W - Black Edition

• 2x PowerColor PCS+ Radeon R9 380, DirectX 12 AXR9 380 4GBD5-PPDHE 4GB 256-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 CrossFireX Support ATX Video Card

• $663.95 Shipped

Discussion:

You can read the wall of text that follows in the spoiler or skip to the bottom line below. But the spoiler explains the bottom line better.

The i7 is the better processor in gaming benchmarks today. It consistently shows better per core performance than the FX and, even though having 4 fewer physical cores, currently outperforms the FX overall. However, I have to sacrifice 1 ot the R9 380's to meet my budget. The i7 Overclocks well and stays fairly cool. This make cooling a cheaper consideration than the Nuclear power plant of a CPU the 220W FX is. In the Apevia X-Master case I intend to put it in, cooling is essential. Arguably, it's the most important consideration. The overclocking potential of the i7 this makes it a future ready choice. I'm leaning toward the i7 for these reasons.

On the other hand, the FX has 8 physical cores, vs. the i7's 4 physical (8 threads). Importantly, they are not being taken full advantage of in games and many applications yet. It's likely that the Frames Per Second in games and benchmark scores are currently shortchanging the FX by a significant amount. Performance gains as games and apps progressively take advantage of theses cores could make the FX a persistent/pesky contender. I doubt the FX will ever outperform the i7 overall, but I think the gap between them is inflated. In other words the FX is ahead of it’s time. It may out last the i7-4790K before going obsolete. Since the FX is much cheaper than the i7, I could afford to buy a second R9 380 that would make up for any current performance loss in games due to individual processor performance being inferior to the i7. The gains of having two R9 380's would probably tip the scale back in the FX's favor. As games and apps begin taking full advantage of additional cores (which they will as both Intel and AMD are moving in that direction) the performance gap seen now between the i7 and FX may shrink. Since I would already have 2 R9 380's, my system would only get better with time. If I choose the i7, I would need to buy another graphics card to regain the lead, which would only be a slight one then, and cost more overall.

If I get the i7 I would have the better CPU now. In a year or two, I may or may not find the FX to have complete support. Will that come as updates to older current gen games? I don't know. So if my criteria are to have the best choice for elite dangerous and fallout 4, I might be better off getting the i7 and upgrading to a second R9 380 when prices fall in 6 months or so. Then again I could have saved myself more money in the long run with the FX if proves a contender, having a long reign. I’d be kicking myself for not trusting my instincts.

The AM3+ socket is AMD's most current, so the AMD motherboard would be future ready, whereas the LGA 1150 socket is already obsolete (this is something I hate about intel). The 2011v3 intel socket is already out with another class of i7 processors, but It is out of my budget. So not only would I be out of upgrading options if I go with the i7 in a year or two, but the next AMD offer will likely surpass this i7 easily. I could simply upgrade the FX-9590 with the next AM3+ CPU offering and continue on with my domination.

So, bottom line:

If I go with the i7, I will have the better cpu now, but loose socket compatibility and upgradeability. The AM3+ is not going anywhere anytime soon and the next AMD will probably surpass this i7 anyway. I will see better gaming performance with two R9 380's now anyway. So I'm really torn. I like the i7-4790K's current performance, overclocking headroom, and cool 22nm architecture, but hate that it's the end of that socket line. I like the FX's 8 cores and the future readyness of the AM3+ socket, but hate the nuclear heat it produces with its 32nm architecture.

What should I do? Intel or AMD? I've never had a bad experiance with either, So I'm not adverse to either. I know there are fanboy's out there. I've been on AMD's side for a while myself, but I want to make the best buying decision possable. This will be my first High end Gaming PC.

[tthurman]

As you are aware the i7 will outperform the AMD, but for me it would be hard to purchase 2 cpu generations back for nearly the same cost as current gen. Once the shopping rush is over, skylake procs will be available in the same price range. I know the 6 series has been somewhat of a disappointment, all things considered, but still.....

Given that, and staying in the DDR3 world, I'm leaning toward lesser CPU and more GPU of the AMD option.

Note: My experience with AMD is purely laptop based, but I realize they have a lot of bang for the buck regardless.

[RIP-Felix]

Well, looking into it further, I could do the i7-6700K skylake and a cheap MSI MOBO. I was hoping to avoid buying DDR4 going with the i7-4790, I already have the DDR3 I would have used, so in that way I could have saved about $100. I also knoticed that the R9 290 is better than the 380, hence it's a bit more expensive. But thats what is reccomended with todays modern games and the occulus rift. Found one for $220.

So the 14nm Skylake i7-6700K @ 4 GHz, MSI Z170A PC MATE LGA 1151 motherboard, 16GB DDR4, and 1x Saphire Radeon R9 290 would be future ready on the new 1151 socket. It would be cool and managable in my small case. Also it does significantly blow the FX out of the water. But the price premium puts me over budget at $830. Plus the i7-6700K is out of stock and prices are throught the roof above msrp. I'll wait and see if a better price comes along, Or maybe I'll just get the graphics card first and see how well my old processor handles itself.

[RIP-Felix]

Advice?

I read on a random forum, so who knows if its true, that intel sockets only stay around for two cpu generations. So by the time an upgrade is necessary a new motherboard is needed anyhow. The performance difference between end-of-socket and first generation high end cpus don't warrant an upgrade.

Ok, so should I be worried about the fact that LGA 1150 is end of cycle, or that 2011v3 will not see another cpu line? If not, I could go with the i7-5820K, it's 6 core, in stock, and in the same price point as the i7-4790K and i7-6700K. I'm thinking by the time I should have to upgrade, I would likly have to buy another motherboard anyway, so I should just get what I want without considering upgradability. If upgrading later is a concirn, I could get a cheap i5 now and wait for the i7 that completes the 1151 socket cycle in a few years when the i5 can't keep up. I want the name i7, but really it's not that important.

So should I wait for the 6700K to get back in stock or get a cheap i5 and wait for the next i7 offering on the 1151 socket in a year or two?

Or

Should I bypass the 1151 socket entirely banking on the idea that an i7-5820k on a dead end 2011v3 socket will outlast the 1151 sockets cpu cycle, upgrading later when I would have to get a new motherboard anyway?

[tthurman]

I wouldn't buy planning to upgrade just a CPU in the future, not for INTEL anyway. I think those days are pretty much over. Socket 775 ran perhaps the longest of any I can recall.

I find the i5 six core is much more appealing to me than the 4th gen stuff, obviously for the extra cores. Truth be known, I'd bet there isn't a tremendous amount of difference future-proof wise between 4,5 or 6th gen.

[RIP-Felix]

Apparently the skylake processors benefit substantially from 2666MHz DDR4 in a situation where the CPU is the bottleneck. An i3-6100 can see 10-15% increase in game performance over the 2133MHz.

So I've decided to spend a little more on motherboard that will allow overclockable memory. When I get into CPU bound situations, god knows when, then that memory will extend the longevity of my cpu, squeezing every last bit of performance out. I imagine this will be long past any socket is relevant. So lets set upgradability off the table.

The question now is which cpu combines the best price to performance ratio, among the high performers? I created the the attached graphs from info here. It's a useful resource. I copied all the CPU there into excell and removed the enterprise processors. It shows the i7-5820 is not only the best sub $400 performer, but also the best value of the Intel CPU's I'm looking at getting. The AMD FX CPU's are great value chips and you can see clearly why fanboi's boast. I'm looking above that performance range and can't deal with that much heat, so the i7-5820K or a i7-4790 (better price, great performance, even if not as good) I think are the best choices beyond the FX-9590.

I was really close to getting a i7-6700K, thank you holiday shoppers for buying up all the inventory so I couldn’t. The 5820 is 6-core and has a better CPU Mark average score. It also costs less. Even a i7-4790K is better/cheaper. Sure the socket is a dead end, but it matters not. BTW: that price vs performance scatter plot was the most usefull graph I've ever made (Using Minitab, a statistics program). Saved me so much trouble. It clearly shows how all the cpus are in relation to one another. Simply awesome, if I may toot my own horn.

Other thoughts: you can see how the FX line out performes for less money any Intel chip less powerful than the i7-4790K. If you don't see the appeal of AMD now, your hopless. I mean, there's a reason AMD is still in business! This is why!.

[RIP-Felix]

Ok, so I went with an Intel i7-4790K, ASRock Z97 Extreme 6 motherboard, and a EVGA Nvidia Geforce GTX 970. I'm gonna try and fit it in this case.

Total Cost = $876.85 (Ouch!)

Ok, I'm over budget. But look at these graphs. The GTX 970 is right at the edge of what I'm willing to pay for a graphics card, but is much better performer than the R9 290 I was looking at, although it was $100 more expensive. I would’ve bought the R9, but I hesitated and they sold out. I think the 970 is worth the extra though. BTW: The graph is a compilation I made from here.

As for the i7-4790K, it is alone in the category of High end CPU's. I think it is the best value High end CPU on the market right now, beating out the 6th gen i7-6700K in both performance and price. It's a no brainer. The FX-9590 comes close in value because it's much cheaper, but the cooling requirement is ridiculous. I'm a little burned out on AMD right now anyway, I'm not knocking it, I just want to try an Intel again. I haven’t had one since the Pentium 4, it's time for another, and this one is the right price/performance necessary to bring me back.

EDIT:

For the sake of it I looked at what it would have cost for an i7-6700K, 8GB (2x 4GB) DDR4 2800MHz + Compatible Z170 Motherboard, and the same GTX 970 Graphics card. It totals $859.96. The system I bought above should just edge this system out. So, I feel confident it was a good buy. Expensive, but these specs for less than $1000 is damn good.

I will say this, as the cpu ages and gets into cpu bound situations, the i7-6700K if paired with 2666 or 2800MHz DDR4 on a z170 motherboard will see improvements that extend it's effective lifespan, possably beyond the i7-4790K. So if it were in stock I probably would have gone that route, but the i7-4790 is still a better value, especially since it Overclocks well. You can't go wrong with either, but you might go broke.

[imagamejunky]

Wish I would have read your thread earlier..

This may upset you but I feel I should comment. My 4 player cabinet build has a 4790k and a gtx970. It didn't perform as well as it should have with my DK2. It wasn't running all the demos/games at the full 75fps which is absolutely necessary. I'm currently running the DK2 with great success on my racing sim build. It has a 5820k and 2 gtx980s in SLI. Oculus demos/games are not currently optimized for SLI. However I believe it's definitely helping.

I, like many people haven't tried the CV1 yet so I can't comment on how well it will run on a single 970. I'm thinking that with your new build you may want to try a second 970 in sli if you aren't happy with the performance.

Just trying to help.

Junky

[RIP-Felix]

I apreciate that. I knew that the Occulus would require a beefy system to run well, and it must if I want to keep my lunch. So I was trying to at least meet their reccomended specs. From my research above I feel I got the best price/performance combo possable. There's certainly more headroom for overclocking and SLI in the future. So, as you say I can go that route if needed.

Have you seen any juddering from the SLI config? I've read that for some reason SLI tends to do that, whereas a single won't. I'm not sure that is credable though.Also, do you think your GTX 970 is throttling due to high temps? I was thinking of getting this for sound and max performance without throttling. I've read reviews where their 970s were throttling down the FPS in games due to heat, when they water cooled them no more throttling.

I'm mainly interested in Elite Dangerous/other space Sims with a HOTAS setup, Racing Sims (any suggestions?) with an old Playstation 2 Logitech Force Feedback Driving Wheel, and Dolphin VR. A single 970 will be plenty for Dolphin VR, so that's half of it. Elite dangerous is fairly mature now, so it shouldn't have any trouble. I'm not really into any shooters, maybe I'll get Battlefront, but this should be good for that too. I'll have to see. Obviously a 980 would be better, but it was out of my price range. I've already gone way over budget, total is over $1000 now. I suppose that's not too bad for these specs.

---------------------------------------

I just received the stuff and was installing it. The nMediaPC 2800B is an awesome HTPC case, the GTX 970 fits in fine with plenty of room to spare! Hell I could easily fit another for SLI, which I was unsure about. The HDD rack behind the PSU wound be unsuable, but there are 2 3.5" under the slim optical drive and a 2.5" mount above. Just about everything in this case is removable, so it's very modder friendly. Everything is attached with screws, so If it won't fit with it, remove it. No need to cut! I love this case! I only have 2 gripes with it so far:

• It only has 140mm of clearance above the CPU for heatsinks, most of the better coolers now are 158mm tall. However this is way more space than I've had to work with in my last 2 HTPC builds, so I'm psyced to be able put a Zalmon 2-ball copper cooler (125mm tall) on my i7-4790k. That should do for a modest overclock if and when that becomes necessary.
• There is exactly 27mm between the edge of the motherboard and the 2x 120mm fan mounts on the side of the case opposite the PSU. This is where I would be interested in putting a dual 120mm all in one liquid CPU Cooler. I wish the case were about 30mm wider to allow it to be installed inside the case. As it is I would have to install the Radiator outside with the Fans inside. That's not a big deal, and I may do so, but I would have to cut a hole in the side for the tubes/block to fit through. Not a big deal, I'd just like to hide the Behemoth inside, for the same reason I want it to be quiet. It's an HTPC, it must be attractive looking without being distracting.

[rockyrocket]

So my system is close to your new specs

-4790k

-Z97X-UD3H-BK mobo

-GTX 970

-16 GIGS RAM

It runs ED perfectly now, I am though expecting to have to upgrade the GPU or get another 970 and SLI them for VR.

This is based on frontiers min GPU specs of a 980 found here...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=207248

Hope a 970 will cut it but the wallet is ready .

[RIP-Felix]

Ok, thanks. Yeah, sounds like I may have to lower a few settings. Also, I only got 8GB of RAM. I'll have to see how high the settings will go in order to maintain 90 FPS. Sounds like an SLI situation will work, but that's too much money for just 1 game IMO.

[tthurman]

Oculus Rift Minumum PC Spec Finalized