Space travel or VR?

[RIP-Felix]

Which would you rather have? A future like Star Trek, with space travel and alien cultures, but no holo deck. Or a fully immersive VR Fantasy world, like Ready Player One.

Which do you think is more likely to be possible?

[Draco1962]

An "Oasis" is more likely in the not too distant future. Get the backing of the porn industry with advanced VR and haptic suits and accessories for the win.

[RIP-Felix]

1 hour ago, Draco1962 said:

An "Oasis" is more likely in the not too distant future. Get the backing of the porn industry with advanced VR and haptic suits and accessories for the win.

I agree it's more plausible, but is it the future you'd rather live in?

Assume that the advanced haptic rigs and immersion "chambers" could convince all your senses that the Virtual is real. Would the fact it's a fantasy detract from the experience? Or would you enjoy the safety and versatility of fantasy over the consequences of reality? On the flip side, would you enjoy meeting alien cultures and exploring the real universe without the fantasy?

[Draco1962]

I'd rather a future like Star Trek.  In "Ready Player One" reality was really depressing and bleak.

[RIP-Felix]

Imagine you were born on a planet in the neutral zone. Periodic mascaras by the Cardassians, general apathy from the Federation to your plight, and limited access to technology can be just a dystopian for you my friend. Only this time there's no escape to the virtual, because I've outlawed Holodecks...Mwhahaha...

I like that most Human factions have settled their differences in the Trek universe, but that seems only to be out of necessity, because of wars with Klingons, Cardassians, Ramulans, the Dominion, the Borg and so on. A "replicator economy" has supplanted a "monetary economy" making technology the main currency. And since Star Fleet is the Federation's Military (Err, "Exploratory") arm, technological advances are more easily "acquired" through trade and treaty with alien cultures. So sometimes they'll abandon their own people for their own benefit - after all, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", said the emotionless Vulcan communist. When the Federation abandons their own people in the Neutral Zone, allowing the Cardassians to massacre and displace them, the Maquis form to protect those settlements. What does the Federation do? Help the Cardassians destroy them. So, you're either a slave to the federation (pervasive propaganda has successfully spun it as volunteering!) or you're free to enjoy subjugation in relative comfort. Albeit veiled, the military state that is the the United Federation of Planets can be just as dystopian as the Ready player One universe. It just depend on where you live and how many people stand to benefit from your misery.

Also, there has been no shortage of speculation on how "utopian" a post-scarcity economy would actually be. This was pretty interesting. IMO Star Trek is the "what shall I get bored with next?" reality. The only reason to work in such a society is for prestige, position, personal satisfaction, or to fill a void in one's ego. This bring up an interesting point, People with egotistical personality disorders would become even more rampant than they are today. They'd concentrate in positions of power, a difficult job with unhealthy amounts of stress. The only people who would choose these jobs are those either truly compelled by altruism, trying to fill a void in their personality, or are just plain board. So really, the motivation to do anything unpleasant is to stave off boredom. It will require a good imagination and a shift in priorities (from selfish to selfless) in order to be happy in a truly utopian society. It would require that there be no wicked people, or it would devolve into lawlessness and oppression. Assuming there is no God to remove these wicked people, I question how utopian the Trek universe could actually be. As it is I see an extremely boring, morally bankrupt and political dystopia veiled behind the wonders of a post-scarcity economy. Once that novelty wears off, as it would for anyone actually born into it, they'd be forced to find meaning in a world of plenty. Essentially, this is what happens when you get super rich. Once the novelty wears off,  if you weren't enough without it, you'll never be enough with it. Your priorities have to change to find meaning, and that's always hard.

So, given these alternatives,  I would rather live in the RPO universe. All the meaning of a live lived in poverty, with the benefit of escapism to a limitless fantasy! I'm such a good American, aren't I?

Please, knock me off my position. I'm eager to hear the rebuttal.

[hansolo77]

Thanks for making me hate Star Trek now!   Actually, I still want to live in the Trek universe.  But after reading your rant, I think I'll just stick with the Star Wars universe, and realize that Force users are few and far between.  So if you ever see one, they're basically gods.  But if I lived in that universe, I'd probably still be what I am today, a deli clerk at a grocery store. 

[RIP-Felix]

We can open this up to the wars universe. I said space travel or VR, not specifically trek. I'm with you Han, wars beats trek any day. Strife, wonder and intrigue. Scarcity and a good old money based economy filled with scoundrels, bounty hunters, force wielding a-holes and heros alike. Actually Star Wars universe may be a better analogy than the trek universe because there is no Holodeck or replicator nonsense.

IDK Han, you make a compelling case with the wars universe...but I think I'd have to stick with the RPO fantasy. It's just as convincing as the real thing without the consequences. I may get hit by a stray storm trooper blaster, but at least I won't actually die. And there is even a sector in the OASIS dedicated to the Star Wars Galaxy. It's nestled between the Star Trek and Firefly Sectors (plural)! So when I finally save enough credits to buy my first space faring vessel, I can begin completing quests in "middle earth, vulcan, Pern, Arrkis, Magrathea, Disc-world, Mid-World, Ring-world. Worlds upon worlds." All from the discomfort of my stack. That is if I can avoid my aunt Alice and her perpetually shirtless boyfriend Rick.

[Draco1962]

8 hours ago, RIP-Felix said:

It's just as convincing as the real thing without the consequences

Here is my rebuttal based upon this statement. No consequences.

People get absorbed into social media, online gaming (WoW, Second Life, etc.) and act like royal dicks, and many cannot separate the fantasy from the reality. They act in reality as they do online and are surprised when they get caught and squeal like little bitches when they have to accept the consequences for their actions. There is no respawning in real life. Well, there was this one man from Galilee, but it even took him 3 days to respawn, but that's another story... 

Star Trek, Star Wars, real life, whatever setting you choose as the reality setting, there is recognizable good and evil, and consequences for one's actions.

[RIP-Felix]

It's important to stay grounded to what's real and not to get lost in la-la-land...kind of the moral of RPO actually. But I read and watch Scifi and fantasy all the time and don't have trouble separating fiction from fact. I think every kid learns that cartoon physics isn't the way it really works, just from playing outside. That is a good reason not to allow VR take over reality as our #1 experience from birth, like the matrix. BTW, could the Matrix be in the distant future of the Star Wars universe where Sith Droids had take over? Neo would be the first rediscovered Jedi? Food for thought.

The consequences of reality add authenticity and zest to the experience, which VR can't do to the same degree. You have to be genuine because you only get one shot at life. Whereas in VR you can act any way you want. Other people are doing the same and that detracts from interpersonal relationships, because you can't trust anyone. Relationships based on a lie can never be transformed into reality lest the lie be exposed (You might actually be dating a Hairy Guy named Chuck, living in his mom's basement). RPO fleshed this out this fairly well.

I'm not going to agree with the "video games make people more violent" hysteria perpetuated by the media in the 90s. The "lets have senate hearings to see if Mortal Kombat it the reason for school shootings." IMO that has nothing to do with video games, and everything to do with people (mental health, agency, morality, guidance and attention, relationships and emotion). I do agree with the outcome of that process, however. Games should have ratings that allow users to tailor their experiance. VR should be the same in that you have the information necessary before entering an area with offensive content. Or perhaps there could be discretionary filters you set, which would "Barbie Dollize" naked NPCs, replace lewd adds/billboards with those commensurate to your selection, mute offensive language, disable blood or change it's color, and etc. The only analog in reality is to avoid offensive places or people as much as possible. But it's naive to think you can completely avoid seeing or hearing something you'd rather not. Developing maturity, then, is a better use of ones time.

[Draco1962]

I get what you are saying, and I likewise do not subscribe to the video games begat violence mindset. I haven't much faith in the human race as a collective that can handle widespread virtual worlds responsibly. 

[hansolo77]

Neo = Jedi

Mind = Blown 

I really got to read and then watch this RPO stuff.  I've got to stop retro gaming and work on completing my library.  I OWN that book, and a 4k Collector's version of the movie, but haven't even taken them out of their plastic wrap yet!

EDIT (slightly off topic) - Has anybody seen the newest trailer for Picard yet?  Open up another can of worms over on the other thread about streaming services.  But this has got me stoked!

[RIP-Felix]

First I've heard of it. I haven't even watched the new trek series on CBS all access...because I don't want to pay for CBS all access just for that 1 show.

Dude, if you haven't read RPO yet you are in for a treat. Get the audiobook on audible! I have been re-listening to it on a constant loop for over a year. Can't stop. Probably over ten times...I'm a fan boy for sure (of the book, not the movie). The movie makes sense from a time constraint and licensing standpoint, but I'd rather they'd done a limited series to do it more faithfully. And although people don't like Armada as much, I listen to the audiobook often as well. Similar, not as compelling, but I like it more and more each time. It hits me more at home, literally.