GameEx and RetroArch - Peanut Butter & Jelly?

[stigzler]

Ya see... these guys are SO good at support that they answer their own support queries!

Be interested to see how you get on with RetroArch, null, cos starting another project and having to use Linux with Retroarch and EmulationStation. Key quesiton for me being "are the emulators they've chosen for each system the best ones?"

[nullPointer]

Be interested to see how you get on with RetroArch, null, cos starting another project and having to use Linux with Retroarch and EmulationStation. Key quesiton for me being "are the emulators they've chosen for each system the best ones?"

It's a good question. Despite the many platforms for which RetroArch is available, I've only ever used it on Windows. As a result I'm not sure if the emulator cores available on Windows are the same emulator cores available on other platforms (I suspect not ... but maybe?). Having said that, my general strategy with RetroArch is "find the emulator cores that most closely match the standalone emulators I've always used and just go with those". Beyond that it gets into experimental try-and-see territory.

[Adultery]

You're really gonna like RA, it's pretty epic!! You'll really appreciate it when you start adding bezels, tweaking emulator settings by core, etc. Between MESS and RA, you really don't need much of anything else IMHO.

Building an HTPC is in my list of wants this year, be sure you share some pictures! :-)

[nullPointer]

Thanks man! Yeah I've used RetroArch in the past for a few systems and it really is great. Probably one of the most significant things to have happened to the emulation scene in the last five years. For this HTPC build I think it will be the only 'emulator' I install (although there may be a few weirdo stragglers like nullDC I suppose). My main remaining hurdle is convincing RA to recognize core specific configs, rather than just loading the one that was used last. I've been doing some homework on that one.

Much like RetroArch, this won't be my first HTPC project, but I'm hoping that it will be the best one, as its giving me the opportunity to incorporate lessons I've learned over the years. The trouble with HTPC pictures is that they don't have much sex appeal, LOL! (Unless we're talking full on home theaters with projector setups, stadium style seating, inbuilt sound systems and the like ... but that sort of thing definitely exists outside my my wife's budget :-D)

[Adultery]

I can probably help you with core specific settings. Do you need the command line parameters?

[nullPointer]

I split out RetroArch conversation from the parent thread (found here), since I had already locked the thread and I wanted to talk some more about RetroArch! (while still leaving the conversation open for anyone to reply).

I can probably help you with core specific settings. Do you need the command line parameters?

Interestingly enough, that's the part that's working great. It's the configuration of RetroArch settings that's throwing a monkey wrench at my face. Here's what's happening in a nutshell:

• First I enabled RetroArch for Core Specific settings (I'm away from my machine, but it's the universal setting you can change with no other core loaded)
• Next I grab a new core (we'll say Nestopia for our purposes here), and load up that core.
• Setup the core specific configuration for Nestopia (mainly shaders and control config)
• Check the config directory to make sure a new config was created. It was.
• Repeat steps 2-4 for a different core (Let's say bsnes).
• Reload the Nestopia core and start a game.
• My F%#!ing bsnes settings overwrote my Nestopia settings

So at the moment I'm trying to figure out how to make RetroArch recognize "core specific" config changes so that they are actually core specific.

This is outside the purview of "making it work in GameEx" since that part actually works swimmingly. I have my command setup so that it loads the appropriate core specific config at run time and that part actually works great. (Yes I broke the cardinal rule of "Set it up outside of GameEx first" , but technically it is more or less setup ... just not the way I want it).

So here's what I think I need to do (or at least what I plan on trying next, but haven't yet had time.)

1. Rather than start RetroArch from the GUI, I'll start it directly from the command line loading a core specific config.
2. Then I'll make my config changes, and see how it goes

It's possible that when you load RetroArch from the GUI it maintains some sort of hook to the universal config, and thus when you make config changes they actually have an impact to the universal config rather than (what you think is) the core specific config. I figure starting RetroArch specifically using a custom config might just forego this hook to the universal config. But that's all pure conjecture on my part ... all the same though it makes some sort of sense ... to my twisted little brain at any rate ... err, doesn't it?

[Adultery]

What I do is point a full configuration at it from a command line, so the whole RA config, not just the core specific options. I copy and paste one to the next, and never run a core on anything but that specific config. I think you may be seeing an issue running a core that doesn't have a config set at all, and if I'm running a new core for testing without a config I always run a default command line using a batch file that points at a "sandbox" config file.

It's tedious but it works.

Your suspicion is correct, RA will always retain the last config as the default one unless you tell it to do otherwise. If it isn't supposed to work that way, it's news to me because I hit that wall early on. I also never had any luck sending a second config as that option also exists, and I could never get it to append the second configuration properly.

I needed to keep save locations separate for my OCD, set different cheat file locations and put in different screen configs and artwork for bezels. It just works.

One core, one config, one command line.

I was working on a plugin to automate the command line portion but never finished it, I just got impatient and wrote a batch file instead. Someday.

[stigzler]

Go batch!

[nullPointer]

Go batch!

Batch please.

[stigzler]

"If yer having code problems I got news for you son.....I got 99 problems, and..."

(my god - my geekiness is getting worse with age)

[hansolo77]

I'm eager to further use RetroArch. I built a Kodi box running on a Raspberry Pi 2. I found an addon called "Internet Archive ROM Launcher". Basically, it takes a live and legal online listing of ROM's from the Internet Archive (https://archive.org/index.php) and downloads "on demand" a ROM you want to play and launches it's designated emulator via RetroArch. When you finish playing, it deletes it, saving you space on your memory card. It works great too. Thing is, I hear talk of people doing bezels and things, which I have not a single idea how to accomplish, or what I'd even like to do. For now, GameEx on my computer works great. But if I can do more with my Pi 2 via RetroArch, that'd be just cool.

[Adultery]

RetroPie user here.

http://blog.petrockblock.com/retropie/

<3 it!!!

[u-man]

Be interested to see how you get on with RetroArch, null, cos starting another project and having to use Linux with Retroarch and EmulationStation. Key quesiton for me being "are the emulators they've chosen for each system the best ones?"

The simple answer is, if the devs from Retroarch have the permission from the authors, then they use the best available cores, if not they try to get the next best option.

At least for windows i can only recommend this site: http://nonmame.retrogames.com/

There you will find answers, when to use MAME or another Emulator for specific consoles/computers. As you see, Retroarch is mentioned very often .

If you follow the advices, you can be sure to have the best emulators for your desired goal.

I like Retroarch very much, but the downside is, that it is very, very geeky to configure etc. It really lacks on proper documentation/manuals. On the other side, the forum+members are very friendly and helpful, just like here . For example, admin Hunter K. helped me a lot to port the OpenGL CRT-geom shader to MAME and as a result, this shader is now a inherent part of MAMEUIFX.

I would maybe convert more shaders, but the MAME dev team, will sooner or later abandon the current shader systems OpenGL and HLSL and introduce BGFX. So i am not in the mood to do convertions until that step is done and i rather help Jezze (current HLSL dev.) where ever i can, as this make more sense to me .

Currently i am trying to make a more "precise blueprint" for Adultery, in the hope that he will really help me doing the PlugIn discussed in the VIP section. I still think, that this would be a very helpful thing to further enhance GameEx. It is really sad, that not many people realize what huge steps HLSL makes in the last 1-2 years through Jezze. As a result, they miss really awesome stuff regarding the "visual" presentation of all kinds of Retro-gaming.

The main reason for me to use Retroarch, are not to have all the different emulators under one hood, it is rather to have the awesome shaders to use with all the emulators it offers and nothing else. It is way easier to configure and mantain the original emulators, than to do the same with Retroarch, but the original emulators dont offer these shaders .

[stigzler]

Not sure about http://nonmame.retrogames.com/, uman. Strikes me as just one guy's opinion and it also recommends Mednafen as the best PSX emulator. That's the problem with "best of"s in that it really depends what you're looking for. For example - if you're looking for upscaling, filters and light gun plugin support, then PCSX-R is the way to go. If you're looking for compatibility and reliability, ePSXe. Fidelity to the original, Xebra.

My point is that if Retroarch just chooses one emulator per system, it may be missing a trick. Does it?

Also, does it allow per-game settings/config saves such as controls/filters/plugin settings?

I've also wondered about the shader business with retroarch and this does sound good - so it applies shaders to emus which otherwise wouldn't have that utility? However, isn't there also a 'post-processing' (?) app available that can apply shaders/effects on the output of an emulator? Forgotten what it's called - something like CoolFX or something..

It's all getting rather complicated really isn't it!? Especially compared to when by tinder was sparked all those years ago (around 2003 when first learnt about Mame)

[nullPointer]

Not sure about http://nonmame.retrogames.com/, uman. Strikes me as just one guy's opinion and it also recommends Mednafen as the best PSX emulator. That's the problem with "best of"s in that it really depends what you're looking for. For example - if you're looking for upscaling, filters and light gun plugin support, then PCSX-R is the way to go. If you're looking for compatibility and reliability, ePSXe. Fidelity to the original, Xebra.

There are somethings I disagree with about nonMame (for one thing they have tunnel vision in terms of, "if it can run in MESS/MAME then MESS/MAME is the best emulator for a given system"), but for the most part I think their appraisals are pretty accurate. Have you tried running PSX through Mednafen? I hadn't either until I ran it through RetroArch, and I was highly impressed with the results. That's pretty much my choice of PSX emulator at this point unless I have to use something else (i.e. if a game doesn't run under RA Mednafen ... hasn't happened yet). It's definitely worth a shot if you've not tried it.

My point is that if Retroarch just chooses one emulator per system, it may be missing a trick. Does it?

Also, does it allow per-game settings/config saves such as controls/filters/plugin settings?

The number of cores you can run through RetroArch at any given time (even per system) is only limited by the total number of cores available. And each of those cores can have custom config / shader / bezel / plugin settings. Think of a "core" as an emulator and you're on the right track (it's just the RetroArch nomenclature).

I've also wondered about the shader business with retroarch and this does sound good - so it applies shaders to emus which otherwise wouldn't have that utility? However, isn't there also a 'post-processing' (?) app available that can apply shaders/effects on the output of an emulator? Forgotten what it's called - something like CoolFX or something..

I'm sure this is an over-simplified view of things but I think of RetroArch shaders, bezels and so forth as being very much akin to HLSL in MAME. So yeah RetroArch allows you to run "HLSL type effects" for emulators that wouldn't allow you to do so in their standalone versions

Bit more food for thought. The configuration options in RetroArch can be a bit ... intense (IMO). But those configuration options are the exact configuration options you will use for every core. So it's not a matter of "download one emulator, figure out esoteric configuration options, download another emulator, figure out a whole 'nother set of configuration options," it's "learn once, apply everywhere".

All told, you should just download that sucker and take it for a test drive muh man! There are plenty of decent YouTube tutorials that can have you at least up and running something within a few minutes. It would be worth it to see some real time examples of where RetroArch deviates from 'standard' emulators and where it does not.

[u-man]

Not sure about http://nonmame.retrogames.com/, uman. Strikes me as just one guy's opinion and it also recommends Mednafen as the best PSX emulator. That's the problem with "best of"s in that it really depends what you're looking for. For example - if you're looking for upscaling, filters and light gun plugin support, then PCSX-R is the way to go. If you're looking for compatibility and reliability, ePSXe. Fidelity to the original, Xebra.

My point is that if Retroarch just chooses one emulator per system, it may be missing a trick. Does it?

I've also wondered about the shader business with retroarch and this does sound good - so it applies shaders to emus which otherwise wouldn't have that utility? However, isn't there also a 'post-processing' (?) app available that can apply shaders/effects on the output of an emulator? Forgotten what it's called - something like CoolFX or something..

It's all getting rather complicated really isn't it!? Especially compared to when by tinder was sparked all those years ago (around 2003 when first learnt about Mame)

So i start here with Mednafen vs. PCSX-R. If PCSX-R has all these upscaling, filters advantage, then you forgot that you use the Mednafen core in Retroarch, and there is no doubt that you can pretty fast forget all the PCSX-R filters, upscalers etc. , because there is absolutely nothing that can compete vs. Retroarch regarding shaders... i repeat, nothing.

With 'post-processing' app, you mean Sweet FX. Yes, you could use this, but there are not many CRT-Shaders and the ones that are there, are not as good as Retroarch or MAME´s HLSL. I see Sweet FX´s advantage more for modern games and not in Retrogames.

Regarding http://nonmame.retrogames.com/ . I once had the same opinion as you both here, thinking "ha, they forgot this and that emulator", but the more i looked into it, the more accurate i found it. If you read closely, then you will see, that they often give/show alternative emulators and for all the other reasons you mentioned, i can only quote a sentence from nonmame "Please note this does not mean any of these systems are "perfectly emulated" either - emulation is never truly perfect!".

Thats exactly what I think meanwhile and i started to collect the real stuff that i like the most. Leaving emulation more and more behind. Its also more fun and less hassle to be honest. Real hardware is more "press play on tape " and done. No configuring, fiddle-ing or other headaches. So far i have PS1, Xbox, Xbox360, SNES, Gameboy and Vectrex.

With awesome solutions like Everdrive, PSIO and other Multi-Cartridges, i have the same huge collection, as with emulators, but playing at a 100% accurate rate .

At the end, i will be left with MAME and a view emulators, at least thats my plan.

I'm sure this is an over-simplified view of things but I think of RetroArch shaders, bezels and so forth as being very much akin to HLSL in MAME. So yeah RetroArch allows you to run "HLSL type effects" for emulators that wouldn't allow you to do so in their standalone versions

All told, you should just download that sucker and take it for a test drive muh man! There are plenty of decent YouTube tutorials that can have you at least up and running something within a few minutes. It would be worth it to see some real time examples of where RetroArch deviates from 'standard' emulators and where it does not.

Like i said, there is nothing, that can compete against the shaders from Retroarch. They have literally hundreds of shaders and not only this, you can all mix them up to your own like, giving you thousands of possibilities. You maybe realized at the nonmame page, that Retroarch and MAME are sharing the "main-emu-market", regarding who can support the most. This is good for the emulation-scene, because this way we have way more available systems. It was one of the reasons, why i adviced Jezze to focus on things, that Retroarch dont have, like the recent vector-shading improvements. Even with tons of shaders, Retroarch has nothing to offer when it comes to vector-shading . Also MAME follows a completely different philosophy, in terms of accurateness and grown up seriousness. For HLSL this means, that only real physical aspects of CRT-simulation is considered worthy, unlike Retroarch, that also has shaders, that are far away from any CRT-simulation. I like both and its good to see, that each fraction can learn something from the other.

Muh man ... yeah, thanks for the links, but i dont have any config problems, its just what i see and read when surfing through different forums, that other people struggle with the configuration of Retroarch, especially when it comes to specific problems, like running a CRT setup with Retroarch and other things.

[stigzler]

I should, I should, Null, but juggling many balls. Retroarch and Rocketlauncher deffo on my list, but also dreading starting on linux and sbcs in a few days time...I think that might be like going back to school.

I have used mednafen stand alone. Seems solid, but I'm a bit of a chav and do love my upscaling. I know Mednafen has a few basic filters, but does it upscale. Also, does it use GTE Accuracy hacks? Also, can you use Nuvvee lightgun plugin with it? Sorry - I think I'm a bit of a PCSX-R fanboy really (although it's a bit broken with Windows 10 + it seems to be gathering dust on a shelf, sadly).

U-man - you're the shader guy! You should pull together all the shader resources you know of for different systems. I've found a number for psx (use with epsxe and pcsx-r) and also a handful for snes. Get yer link on dude!

[nullPointer]

Regarding http://nonmame.retrogames.com/ . I once had the same opinion as you both here, thinking "ha, they forgot this and that emulator", but the more i looked into it, the more accurate i found it. If you read closely, then you will see, that they often give/show alternative emulators and for all the other reasons you mentioned, i can only quote a sentence from nonmame "Please note this does not mean any of these systems are "perfectly emulated" either - emulation is never truly perfect!".

I get that, and I actually really like nonMAME as well, especially as a starting point for systems which I've not previously emulated and definitely as a recommended starting point for those that are just getting into emulation. My main (and probably only) issue with nonMAME is this (emphasis mine):

NonMAME documents the best open-source emulator for any given system, with priority given to MAME due to its comprehensive scope.

Why give priority to MAME? Sure it's the "grand daddy of 'em all" (much respect) but it's certainly not the be all and end all when it comes to emulation, particularly for those systems that were previously emulated under MESS. I dunno maybe I've just never fully appreciated MESS for what it is/was but AFAIC the best descriptor for it was right there in the title all along, a mess. RetroArch is the fully realized vision of what MESS was trying to do. Yes the mission statements are different between RetroArch and MAME (give the best emulation experience vs. duplicate hardware right down to bare metal if possible), but the whole point of nonMAME is to recommend alternates for those systems in MAME which are not fully emulated (as in playable). So yeah I dunno nonMAME is cool and all, but I think it's a bit shortsighted in scope to intentionally "give priority to MAME". There's a reason that we're not still watching VHS tapes anymore and that's because technology improves things over time. Sometimes that means admitting that what once was best, has been surpassed in new and unexpected ways. That's all I was trying to get at. Naturally that's all purely IMO.

Muh man ... yeah, thanks for the links, but i dont have any config problems, its just what i see and read when surfing through different forums, that other people struggle with the configuration of Retroarch, especially when it comes to specific problems, like running a CRT setup with Retroarch and other things.

That was actually more for the benefit of Stigzler ... which was why I quoted him directly beforehand ( ) ... but sure OK.

U-man - you're the shader guy! You should pull together all the shader resources you know of for different systems. I've found a number for psx (use with epsxe and pcsx-r) and also a handful for snes. Get yer link on dude!

So crazy part about this is that there really aren't any links to give. RetroArch includes an integrated Online Updater which is used for the purposes of downloading emulator cores, shaders, bezels, databases, and a host of other stuff. With RetroArch there's not a lot of concern regarding "scouring the internet" since it's all right there inbuilt and at your fingertips.

[Adultery]

In the eyes of a good friend of mine who is also a doctor...

[Kustom Kid]

I'm fully holding all of you responsible for the time I'm going to lose messing around with RA. I looked at it a while back and decided to stick with the emulators I've been using forever, but after reading this thread I've decided to give it a go. I'm not that far into it, but tinkering is almost more fun than actually playing the games we're all trying to set up. I'm looking forward to all of the extras it will allow my emulation setup.

[Adultery]

I'll take that responsibility, mostly because I know it'll be worth it and you'll be trying to figure out how to buy me a beer.

[u-man]

Why give priority to MAME? Sure it's the "grand daddy of 'em all" (much respect) but it's certainly not the be all and end all when it comes to emulation, particularly for those systems that were previously emulated under MESS. I dunno maybe I've just never fully appreciated MESS for what it is/was but AFAIC the best descriptor for it was right there in the title all along, a mess. RetroArch is the fully realized vision of what MESS was trying to do. Yes the mission statements are different between RetroArch and MAME (give the best emulation experience vs. duplicate hardware right down to bare metal if possible), but the whole point of nonMAME is to recommend alternates for those systems in MAME which are not fully emulated (as in playable). So yeah I dunno nonMAME is cool and all, but I think it's a bit shortsighted in scope to intentionally "give priority to MAME". There's a reason that we're not still watching VHS tapes anymore and that's because technology improves things over time. Sometimes that means admitting that what once was best, has been surpassed in new and unexpected ways. That's all I was trying to get at. Naturally that's all purely IMO.

So crazy part about this is that there really aren't any links to give. RetroArch includes an integrated Online Updater which is used for the purposes of downloading emulator cores, shaders, bezels, databases, and a host of other stuff. With RetroArch there's not a lot of concern regarding "scouring the internet" since it's all right there inbuilt and at your fingertips.

Believe me, i had exact the same thoughts, before i joined the MAME dev groups, but i will try to explain you this. Retroarch is a nice Frontend/App, but there is nearly no own developing involved regarding all the emulators it contains. Sure, they do alter the cores, for the many platforms they are supporting, but they didnt wrote the whole Mednafen core or MAME core or any else core .

What will happen, once a developer has stopped improving a emulator? And this is a thing, that already is happening to many emulators. Now lets take your state "There's a reason that we're not still watching VHS tapes anymore and that's because technology improves things over time." What will happen if 4k/8k displays with HDR are common things in households? How a abandoned emulator will face the improved technology? Who will and can improve closed source projects? Questions over Questions.

These facts alone, makes MAME a way more serious program/platform for any developer. MAME has over 75 main developers and god knows, how many others, that occasionally improve drivers. So from a pov of a developer, isnt it nicer for him to join the MAME group, rather than just doing his project all alone? And dont you think, he will also reach his goal way faster?

It may sound sad for us gamers sometimes, but the main goal of all MAME devs, is not to bring us games to our hands at all costs and in no time, this is just a nice side-effect that we can actually play these games. MAME devs are trying to avoid hackish attempts, just to make games working under all circumstances. They could easily make some games playable for us, by inventing hackish tricks or altering/overclocking drivers, but accuracy stays over gaming. In the long run, this principle will win and stay over many other projects that are maybe considered dead meanwhile. Sometimes this means that devs rather sit and wait Moore´s law becoming true So you maybe think there are many games not working at 100% speed in MAME, but the time will come, where technology will improve to a point, that it easily handles the cpu-hungry resources of some MAME games and at this point, MAME will beat easily any other emulator project .

Take Vectrex for example, I always thought, hey ParaJVE is the ultimate emulator for this console and comparing to MESS 2 years ago, this fact was true, but looking now at it, MAME beats it in terms of look and feel, because the vector-shading improved vastly in MAME and as soon as HDR will be available, it will improve even more and i am not counting in the things that will additionally come, that i will not talk about yet . And what happened to ParaJVE meanwhile? Exactly nothing, development is on hold or rather dead, considering there was nothing improved in 4 years and probably never will.

Or take SNES for example, currently BSNES is still the ultimate, but offer BSNES Super Gameboy? Its not perfect in MAME, but it will be... sooner or later and this is true for many periphals in other systems of MAME. So taking stigzler point of lightgun support into account, here is the answer.

You maybe have a clue now of "Why giving priority to MAME" Its this, why i have no problems with that state of Nonmame.

[nullPointer]

All good points. Like I say I really do appreciate NonMame as a community resource, and naturally MAME is an awesome piece of kit; much respect to all of those out there making it happen on a daily basis! I think I just have a natural distrust of preferential treatment under any guise, which leads me to question the nature of that preferential treatment. In the end though, I'm just ever so grateful that the scene continues to grow and change, and that there are dedicated individuals that make it all possible.

[stigzler]

I'm eager to further use RetroArch. I built a Kodi box running on a Raspberry Pi 2. I found an addon called "Internet Archive ROM Launcher". Basically, it takes a live and legal online listing of ROM's from the Internet Archive (https://archive.org/index.php) and downloads "on demand" a ROM you want to play and launches it's designated emulator via RetroArch. When you finish playing, it deletes it, saving you space on your memory card. It works great too. Thing is, I hear talk of people doing bezels and things, which I have not a single idea how to accomplish, or what I'd even like to do. For now, GameEx on my computer works great. But if I can do more with my Pi 2 via RetroArch, that'd be just cool.

I do like the sound of this Hans and watched a quick vid on it. Currently debating between using EmulationStation or Kodi as the Front End on a Linux SBC. How does "Internet Archive ROM Launcher" work in practice? i.e. how full are the games lists + available files (and where does it get them from!?). Also - looking to emulate up to and including N64 and PSX - how is it with these systems?

[hansolo77]

While he has support in the addon for PSX/N64, I'm not able to use them because of the capability limitations of the Pi 2 I'm running it on. In fact, I can't even get SegaCD to work because there is no ARM compiled version of the utility to used to extract the downloaded ISO files (it's in CHD format). As long as there is a core for it though, it will work in theory. All the addon does is render the file lists and download/delete "On Demand" as needed. As far as the file list is concerned, I can easily say there are thousands of them. He has a filter pre-set to show only English titles, but that can be edited out to use the FULL list. Near as I can tell, it has all of the available ROMs for a given system (minus all the fluff like betas/alternate versions/mods/etc). Pretty much a GoodSet, if you remember those. The only thing I can say as to where the files are coming from is that he's getting the file lists via xml from the Internet Archive. I believe he found a few user-generated lists that simply point to the actual physical file locations in the Archive, and he simply re-compiled his own "ultimate" file list. Could be mistaken though.

Here's the direct forum link for this:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=231339